Yes, it’s okay, providing it isn’t done, as Paul says, when it will cause real offence, such as when inviting a Jewish guest. This is Mark’s comment that Jesus “declared all foods clean”:

Mark 7:18 And [Jesus] said to them, “Then are you also without understanding? Do you not see that whatever goes into a person from outside cannot defile him, 19 since it enters not his heart but his stomach, and is expelled?”  Thus he declared all foods clean.

The only exception is where any food — either a “clean” food offered to idols (e.g., beef or mutton), or a food that was unclean to Jews like pork or shellfish, or by extension today beef to a Hindu or meat to a Buddhist — will cause a stumbling block or barrier between someone and belief in Christ. Paul discusses how and why not to offend converts from idol-worship in 1Co.10, and how not to offend converts from Judaism in Rom.14. However, in those chapters Paul repeatedly makes it clear that, apart from not causing other believers (particularly new believers) to stumble, he himself is free to eat anything, and so are Christians.

Paul specifically warns about Christians who try to establish again the Jewish food laws:

1Tim.4:1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons, 2 through the insincerity of liars whose consciences are seared, 3 who forbid marriage and require abstinence from foods that God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, 5 for it is made holy by the word of God and prayer.

The rules against pork and shellfish in the Law of Moses were a temporary restriction. Now circumcision, and the Law of Moses generally, has been fulfilled and finished. The following two passages argue from the abolition of circumcision to prove abolition of all the Law.

Eph.2:11 Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands— 12 remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility 15 by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, 16 and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility.

Col.2:13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, 14 by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. 15 He disarmed the rulers and authorities and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in him. 16 Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath.

Note above that Paul also dismisses the Sabbath along with rules about food and drink.

Food with blood

This has been discussed previously:

The idea of clean and unclean animals dates back to Noah selecting two of each kind of the unclean animals and seven of each kind of the clean animals for the ark. After the ark came to rest, God removed any restriction on eating meat:

Genesis 9:1 And God blessed Noah and his sons and said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth. 2 The fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth and upon every bird of the heavens, upon everything that creeps on the ground and all the fish of the sea. Into your hand they are delivered. 3 Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you. And as I gave you the green plants, I give you everything. 4 But you shall not eat flesh with its life, that is, its blood. 5 And for your lifeblood I will require a reckoning: from every beast I will require it and from man. From his fellow man I will require a reckoning for the life of man.

Thus leaving only the warning about meat with the blood in it. Blood is a separate issue that was binding on Noah before the Law of Moses, and also more or less binding on Christians in the Jerusalem and Antioch areas during the early years of the church.  In Acts 15, as a result of a dispute with Jewish Christians who had very extreme views in Antioch demanding circumcision, wanting Gentile Christians to adopt all the food laws, etc., James and the Jerusalem Church adopted a compromise position with only three food requirements:

Acts 21:25 But as for the Gentiles who have believed, we have sent a letter with our judgment that they should abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from what has been strangled, and from sexual immorality.”

However Paul later overturned these three rules about meat offered to idols, meat with blood in it, and strangled meat as well:

1Co.10:25 Eat whatever is sold in the meat market without raising any question on the ground of conscience. 26 For “the earth is the Lord’s, and the fullness thereof.”

This rule applied to beef and mutton too, not just pork.

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  • panait ciprian

    Although for non jewish christians eating pork or shellfish is not forbidden you do not understand correct the reasoning behind that and your arguments could be used to support homosexuality for instance which is still wrong. In fact to answer the question instead of misusing those verses you used (try using them in context) you should just look in the Acts of the Apostles. It was great controversy about jews that wanted gentiles to respect all their laws. So the apostles decided this as not to be an extra burden on gentiles: “let them respect the commandments (the 10), respect the laws regarding sexual morality, let them not consume blood, flesh from a strangled (or drawn) animal or food from that dedicated to idols. ” For gentile christians the apostles agreed that some laws where not necessary, including the ones about circumcision.

    • Jonathan Morgan

      A couple of comments:
      1. I don’t see anything in Acts 15 requiring Gentiles to keep the 10 commandments (though many of them are repeated in the law of Christ).  Could you please elaborate?

      2. The issue is not really about whether there should be one set of rules for Jews (including Jewish Christians) and another set of rules for Gentiles.  It seems to me from Hebrews 7:12 that the entire basis of laws has changed because of Jesus’ priesthood.  That applies to all who approach God through Jesus as high priest, not just Gentiles.

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/2USRE2BHKYX3KP37O5LEJQBXIM askme

    I have to comment on your use of 1 Timothy 4:1 as it pertains to diet.  I believe you have taken it out of context.  If you read that entire chapter it is clear that diet is not the main point.  If fact Paul is talking about the Roman Catholic Church.  In the end times ‘some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils: …Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats which God hath created’.  This refers to the Catholic doctrine of forbidding priests and nuns to marry and the abstaining of meat on Fridays.  The whole chapter is unrelated to dietary laws.

    • Jonathan Morgan

      I don’t think it applies solely to the Catholic Church.  However, even if it did, just consider whether the reasoning Paul uses to establish his case.  He is saying that the things created by God are good things, and so if we are thankful to God for them then we really shouldn’t reject them.  He suggests it becomes holy because it has been prayed for.  I think that reasoning applies to all foods, not just those rejected by the Catholic Church.

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/LDLFPSPU4HRKACBCYDAKQPH6MM Stephanie

    I am torn on this issue. I know the Law was fulfilled through the work of Christ, but just because it is fulfilled doesn’t give us the right to do whatever we wish. It’s not okay to break the 10 commandments just because the Law is fulfilled. My struggle is that if there was a Law established concerning unclean foods, then I think God takes it seriously.  If the Law no longer applies to clean or unclean, then people will say well what’s the difference with any sins since the Law has been fulfilled, thus allowing them to deliberately sin and mock God’s grace. I truly don’t know if Christians should eat pork, shellfish, et..Yes the Law was fulfilled, but how is some of the Law null while others aren’t. This can lead to a slippery slope to sin.

    • Jonathan Morgan

      Hi Stephanie,

      I would argue that, while many of the 10 commandments do apply today, the reason why they apply is because Jesus commanded them, not because they were in the law.  The same applies to the other parts of the law.  It’s not a slippery slope to sin, but a recognition that we are under the law of Christ rather than the law of Moses.  I suggest you consider Hebrews 7:12.

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/HYFWA6LOT3F4EZIDIBPF2WYMFY MARK

    Most of the people on this forum are idiots!  Leviticus also tells us it is okay to have slaves as long as they are from a neighbouring country.  Also that people who work on the Sabbath should be put to the death.  Get a grip and don’t live by a set of rules written over 2000 years a go! Times change and so will peoples interpretation of these old words.  Eat what you will but be a good person.  And seek forgiveness when you call a forum of people idiots. Amen

  • http://www.facebook.com/uzormaka.joseph Godswill Apostle Joseph

    how can christian says that the law of God was change by christ(ten comandment) why are we iglorant to christ teachings tat he came to fullfill the law..if christ came to change d law of God tat means GOd does n stand on is word..i am God i changeth not..the law of moses was fullfilled on the cross through christ but the law of liberty which is d ten comandement still stands forever and ever.. non was change from d ten comandment.. Accounting that the long suffering of the LORD is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given to him has written; as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things hard to understand, which they that are unlearned and are unstable wrestle with, as do also the other scriptures to their own destruction” 2 Peter 3: 15-16
    so many of us need prayer and the holy spirit interpretation when using pauls teachings cos many pastors or believers has lead people astray due to their lack of understanding in pauls teaching..i love paul and there is knw chapter in pauls writing that is nt filled with wisdom of God..if u have faith in christ that means u must love him and if u love him u most obey the law of God and by faith in christ the holy spirit was send to use bcos of is grace and if the holy spirit lives in u..u dnt need to struggle in keeping Gods law again cos it is nt by wrk but with d holy spirit in he will help u to keep the law of God

  • http://www.facebook.com/sashalee.kriel Sasha-Lee Kriel

    Both Jesus and Paul dismissed the worry of eating of pork as an unclean act. As long as its prayed over and blessed, it is allowed to be eaten. As for the burn offerings, I just read that up now that in the old days, the people had to burn offerings of animals to constantly be forgiven, for God was very specific about blood sacrifices. Why animals? Because animals did not sin. Now Jesus also did not sin and when he sacrificed himself for us, he provided a constant forgiveness that we can request at any time, therefore the burnt offerings became abolished

  • Last Hour

    i eat pork and it is TASTY! haha. Those born again in Jesus are not defiled by what they eat, only by what we speak.

  • Joseph

    Who wants to be consumed by what kind of unclean foods they eat? Isaiah 66…

    Just because a new testament passage may say its okay with its wrong interpretation doesn’t mean that the prophecy is void. God is faithful and it is best to align with God’s word and change or completely throw away some theology that says otherwise.

    I do not want to be consumed by the unclean foods that i used to eat. Why would i want to eat it anyways? Its filled with diseases and its cursed to eat with a prophecy that says its going to judge all nations and tongues accordingly. Don’t let your belly be your God.

    • Jonathan Morgan

      I’m not sure I understand what you are saying. From Isaiah 66 I can see two things that might apply to unclean foods:
      1. They were making sacrifices that God called unclean (v3).
      2. They were eating pig’s flesh and mice.

      However, both of these things were talking to Jews under the Law of Moses. We do not have to make animal sacrifice to God (and that is something Hebrews is quite clear on). Nor do we have to follow the dietary laws like the Jews did. The arguments set out in this article apply to Isaiah 66 rather than Isaiah 66 counter-acting the arguments set out in this article.

      • Joseph

        The commandments of God were given to Israel as well as any foreigner wanting to come in and worship God. When we were grafted into the tree we should obey the commandments of God. Acts 15 is a chapter that talks about paul giving the people a few commandments that would stop them from worshiping their false gods. They were commandments that applied to them at that moment. That wasn’t all of the commandments that the new testament church is to follow. It was a set portion that applied to them at that moment. When they grow and mature other commandments could be brought in for further instruction leading to holiness. Hebrews goes into very strict detail as to what switched with regards to covenants. Strictly look at the context and do not add or assume. It gives you what it is talking about. When it says law then look at the surrounding context. What law is it talking about.
        Again the prophecy in isaiah 66 is a warning and will be successful. So keep that in mind when you try and interpret the word of God. If you want to go through new testament passages that seem to say otherwise for you then please bring them up. I can help you with a few that God has revealed to me. Keep searching and seeking bud you will be blessed if you do. Subject: [bibleq] Re: Is it okay for Christians to eat pork and shellfish?

        • Jonathan Morgan

          No one is debating that we should obey the commandments of God to us. The question is whether the commandments of God given to Israel are also commandments that are given to us and are binding on us. I can see nothing in Acts 15 that would suggest these commandments are a placeholder for the full law which would come in later. In fact, Peter says in Acts 15:9 – 11 that the law they were discussing was “a yoke which neither we nor our fathers could bear”. If he had been talking simply about the Gentile believers who lacked maturity, he would have said “You are putting on these Gentiles a yoke that they are not yet ready to bear” rather than a yoke that the entire Jewish people (including mature believers) were unable to bear. As a result of these discussions, it was agreed that it was wrong to impose the law of Moses on Gentile believers.

          (just to be clear on context, since you question it: while the debate was originally about circumcision, in v5 it was extended to discussing the entire law of Moses. This is made clear by the final conclusion, which mentions several dietary rules as the only thing they were going to impose – nothing mentioned about circumcision, though we can conclude from that that circumcision was not being required).

          Paul in fact directly challenges the idea that further instructions in these areas are likely to lead to more holiness. In Colossians 2:20 – 23, he says that these kind of food restrictions have an appearance of wisdom, but they don’t actually help. This is in the context of a discussion of the Sabbath, dietary laws, and other parts of the law of Moses, and joins with the words of Paul quoted in the main answer and the other things he wrote about topics like circumcision to make it clear to me that not only was he not enforcing dietary rules on other believers, but he was saying not to listen to others who try and enforce dietary rules on other believers.

          I don’t think you have made it clear why you are taking Isaiah 66 as applicable to Gentiles beyond the Jewish context it was made in, nor have you addressed the passages quoted in the main answer talking about food laws which are given in a Gentile context.

          Also, do you think the statements about animal sacrifice in Isaiah 66 are applicable to us? If not, what basis are you using to decide which parts of Isaiah 66 apply to us and which parts don’t?

          • Joseph

            Colossians 2:20-23New International Version (NIV)20 Since you died with Christ to the elemental spiritual forces of this world, why, as though you still belonged to the world, do you submit to its rules: 21 “Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!”? 22 These rules, which have to do with things that are all destined to perish with use, are based on merely human commands and teachings. 23 Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence. This is speaking about human teachings and commandments not God’s. This is part of the yoke that was unbearable that Paul speaks about. Because in John, John speaks about how the commandments of God are not burdensome. So with this being said they are of a different set. Some jews thought it needed to be obeying this commandments for salvation. Which is a false doctrine. You can’t obey the commmandments to earn salvation because of the sin that has to be paid for and that salvation is a gift by Faith. When looking at laws keep in mind that their are many sections.
            Their are the commandments of men.
            Their are the commandments of God.
            Then their are the twisting of the commandments of God into thinking you can earn your salvation. Each person comes by Faith and then by the change of heart gets drawn into loving God and Loving others which sums up all of the law and the prophets. By Loving God their are some things that God wants to be done His way. To do it His way shows that you are using your temple to honor and Love Him.
            The instruction of the LORD is perfect, renewing one’s life; the testimony of the LORD is trustworthy, making the inexperienced wise. God’s commandments help transform the ungoly lifestyle into an obedient follower. Into the image of Jesus Christ…. Subject: [bibleq] Re: Is it okay for Christians to eat pork and shellfish?

          • Jonathan Morgan

            While I can understand why you think it is just talking the commandments of men, I don’t think it is valid to limit it to just human commands. I pulled out Col 2:20 – 23 because it seemed most contrary to what you were arguing (that observing food laws would increase holiness). However, in the context of the entire chapter it is talking about the position of believers as a result of Christ’s victory (v15). As a result of this victory, believers are told not to let others pass judgement over them in questions of food and drink, festival, new moon, or sabbath (v16). Seeing as festival, new moon and sabbath were things which came from the law, I think it entirely reasonable to assume that the food and drink questions were also questions that came from observance of the law. It then goes on in verse 17 to say that these were shadows of the things to come, while the substance is Christ. I hadn’t noticed it before, but the “shadow” wording is actually very similar to the “shadow” wording used in Hebrews 8 and 10 of the things of the law (I realise that they don’t necessarily share the same author, but it does seem that the style of argument is the same and they use the same language). Verses 20 – 23 seems to continue on from this section, and so I think it likely to refer to the same thing. I’m sure there were teachers trying to impose it and perhaps go beyond the provisions of the law, like there were in the case of circumcision in Galatians. That doesn’t mean that the only problems were with their additions to the law.

            I have a much greater issue with taking Acts 15 as referring to the yoke purely as human additions to the law rather than the law itself. If that were the case, surely James would say something like “Why are we trying to impose on the Gentiles a yoke beyond the law that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? Let us just impose the law on them, given by God to the Jews and thus clearly relevant to the Gentiles.”

          • Joseph

            Alright when dealing with holiness from obeying God’s commandments from a renewed heart is important to understand…
            Leviticus 11:44-45New International Version (NIV)44 I am the Lord your God; consecrate yourselves and be holy, because I am holy. Do not make yourselves unclean by any creature that moves along the ground. 45 I am the Lord, who brought you up out of Egypt to be your God; therefore be holy, because I am holy.
            1 Peter 1:14-16New International Version (NIV)14 As obedient children, do not conform to the evil desires you had when you lived in ignorance. 15 But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; 16 for it is written: “Be holy, because I am holy.”
            That Leviticus 11 is the chapter that talks about the laws of unclean and clean foods. First peter is a new testament passage referring back to the passage in Leviticus. So the commandments that are in col. 2:20-23 are speaking about man made commandments. Which may appear to have an appearance of holiness but in reality they don’t. Because the commandments that God gave do work to create holiness of the body as well as spirit. But the commandments can’t earn someone their salvation that would be a false doctrine. What i am saying is obeying the commandments from a renewed heart and God wrote His laws on your heart. This are those laws that he wrote on your heart. He has the best for you bud. You want to be blessed? What do the scriptures say? Obey God… If you don’t want to be blessed but bring cursing what do you do? Live in rebellion and against God. Okay lets go back a little bit for colossians 2:16-17 so that is understood what that is talking about. Colossians 2:8New International Version (NIV)8 See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces of this world rather than on Christ. So the verses that follow, within context, are talking about man made traditions and judging others based on human commandments instead of obeying God. The second chapter of colossians in verse 16-17 says…
            Colossians 2:16-17New International Version (NIV)Freedom From Human Rules16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. So their were people who were judging the people who were trying to eat what God said you could eat and stay away from the foods that God said not to eat. People were trying to obey God’s festivals and the people around them started to judge them. Based on human standards not God’s. As I know some things are an everlasting covenant in the old testament. Why would Paul say that those commandments shouldn’t be followed if they should of forever and ever? He would be a false apostle if thats what he said but it isn’t.

            Acts 15 is a chapter that talks about earning salvation by doing some works of God’s commandments. That was what Paul was going against in the natural. Acts 15:1New International Version (NIV)The Council at Jerusalem15 Certain people came down from Judea to Antioch and were teaching the believers:“Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved.” What they failed to realize is that salvation is by faith. The commandments should be obeyed but not by a heart that is trying to earn salvation. The commandments should be obeyed out of a heart that wants to change his or her lifestyle into a godly lifestyle motivated by a desire to draw close to God and learn His ways of walking out this life. That was fully made manifest in Christ Jesus. Psalm 19:7Amplified Bible (AMP)7 The law of the Lord is perfect, restoring the [whole] person; the testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple. God’s law transforms them from having ungodly desires into a desire that is being renewed by the Holy Spirit in mind, spirit, soul, and body. The scriptures in galatians are not going to go against what the rest of the bible says especially the prophecy written in Isaiah 66. So seeking wisdom from God is going to be very important! What do you think 1 timothy 4:1-5 means?
            Subject: [bibleq] Re: Is it okay for Christians to eat pork and shellfish?

          • Jonathan Morgan

            I know of at least two places Peter could be quoting from. One is indeed Lev 11:44. The other I can think of is Lev 19:2, which is followed by different commands. However, if we look at how Peter uses this quote, it has nothing whatever to do with unclean animals. Peter doesn’t mention it: you have to read it into his text. Similarly with Colossians, I don’t find your argument compelling when it mentions not man made traditions, but things of the law (sabbaths, new moons, circumcision). While theoretically these verses could be talking about people objecting to others following those rules, it is certainly not the obvious reading, particularly when those things you are calling good are then described as “a shadow”. Do you think the circumcision mentioned in v11 – 13 is also a man made tradition, not a thing of the law?

            I repeat: Acts 15 does not talk about salvation by works. It talks about whether Gentiles should be ordered to keep the law of Moses. The answer was “No”. These things were a yoke on the neck of the disciples. They were putting God to the test. And note that the commands made in Acts 15 (which did not include the majority of the food laws from the OT) were things which were not just commands of men, but “had seemed good to the holy spirit” (v20). No other burden was to be laid on them. They were not just waiting a few years to spring the surprise on the Gentiles that actually they should have been circumcised and kept strict food laws, it was just that nobody told them.

            When Galatians talks about circumcision, it is not going against the rest of the Bible, because the rest of the Bible commanded circumcision for Jews, not for Gentiles.

            As for 1 Tim 4:1 – 5, I think it means what it says: food created by God should be received with thankfulness. It is made holy by the word of God and prayer. We note that there is no limitation of this to particular types of food. In this it is similar to Mark 7:19. I see no reason to see either of them as declaring some foods unclean.

          • Susannah

            Can I please ask a question? Why would the same animals that God made be considered unclean then and not now?

            Unclean also meant that some animals were just that unclean. He clarified which were clean by the way He created them. For example,

            Leviticus 11:3 (KJV)

            “Whatsoever parteth the hoof, and is clovenfooted, and cheweth the cud, among the beasts, that shall ye eat.” – (A cow is good to eat because it is clovenfooted and cheweth the cud)

            Leviticus 11:4 (KJV)

            Nevertheless these shall ye not eat of them that chew the cud, or of them that divide the hoof: as the camel, because he cheweth the cud, but divideth not the hoof; he is unclean unto you. – ( Swine, a pig, is clovenfooted yet DOES NOT cheweth at the cud)

            cud – Food that has been partly digested and brought up from the first stomach
            to the mouth again for further chewing by ruminants, such as cattle and
            sheep.

            Just a tid bit, but did you know that while pigs are domesticated they are pink in color and care about eating ( each others tails, each others feces), however if they were to escape into the wild, they will get hairy, grow tusks and get aggressive in a matter of months. What other animal does that?

            I also don’t believe in coincidences when it comes to the bible. What animal did Jesus put the legion of demons when he removed them from the man posed? And what happened to the other demons when he removed them from other posed people?

            The way God created the earth, it never required mans intervention to keep going. For example, God created shellfish to be the natural filters of the ocean, not for consumption and that is why He forbid them to be eaten.

  • Joseph

    The book of Hebrews goes into great detail as to what laws have changed but keep in mind and be VERY VERY “STRICT” with the context of what your reading and what type of commandments have changed. Do not add and “assume” what its talking about. Grab your information by what the context is. If the conclusion comes to you can eat pork then its wrong based on the prophecy in Isaiah 66. Keep seeking and keep searching….

    We are suppose to be formed into God’s image. We are not suppose to make a god in our image!

  • Susannah

    1. In addition to the weekly Sabbath which fell on the 7th day of the week, there were 7 special Sabbaths. The Sabbath was established at the beginning of time for all mankind. And remember it is the only commandment that begins with REMEMBER. The sabbath is also mentioned many times in the bible. The weekly sabbath is very IMPORTANT. Jesus Himself said in (Matthew 24:20) But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: – also remember that they has to hurry and take His body down before the sabbath and wait till after the sabbath to prepare His body.

    2. Unclean foods also refers to foods that pagans dedicated to idols, and remember that Paul ministered to Gentiles which were mainly pagan.

    3. Let us not forget that many of the foods today are genetically modified. Many foods have been modified by man and not created by God, such as seedless fruit. If we go back to Genesis you can see that God speaks of every seed bearing fruit after its own kind.

    It is scary to separate the Old Testament from the New Testament. They are the same God. Jesus did not come to change His own Law. He is perfect and does not change His mind like we imperfect people do.

    The Lord stated that heaven and earth shall pass away but His words will never. God can see into the future and knows what would be available for man to eat today.

    He also gave us free will, however I would suggest to truly pray to God in Jesus Christ name and ask Him for the truth. Many people will interpret the Word of God to suite their own desires. We should be very careful in today’s time since evil is rampant and the Word of God has been perverted.

    Science today explains why God set His Laws. Should we stop washing our hands before eating because it was in the Old Testament or does science prove that washing hands helps with our health and sickness?

    • Jonathan Morgan

      The examples you gave of sabbath usage seemed to refer to Jewish observance of the Sabbath, not Gentile observance of the sabbath.

      I’m not sure what point you are making with the seedless fruits (though a little searching seemed to suggest that some at least of the “seedless fruit” plants occurred naturally by mutation, and were then propagated by humans who liked them better than the “seeded” versions).

      While rejecting the Old Testament altogether is a bad idea, separating OT from NT is an entirely scriptural thing to do. When scripture talks about the law being a shadow or a schoolmaster leading us to Christ, we can assume that the shadow is being treated differently from the substance: a distinction is being made. And that distinction happens to fall relatively conveniently on OT/NT lines.

      And when you quote “heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away” that is a saying in the NT, by an NT character (Jesus). I suspect it only applied to the chapter in which he said it (the Olivet prophecy), not all of his NT sayings. However, even if it did, that includes no Sabbath laws, no food laws, and the saying quoted above in Mark 7:18 that declared all foods clean.

      Yes, I wash my hands sometimes. That doesn’t mean I wash my hands because it was in the law of God given to the Jews. I wash my hands because it is recommended as sensible for health reasons. There is a big difference between not being required to keep the law and being required to not keep the law. Also, using science to validate the law of Moses raises the question “Well, should we only keep the laws of God that we have had validated by science?”

      • Susannah

        Jonathan Morgan Quote – “The examples you gave of sabbath usage seemed to refer to Jewish observance of the Sabbath, not Gentile observance of the sabbath.”

        My question is what is the “Gentile observance” of the sabbath? and please use bible scriptures to answer this question.

        Concerning the Sabbath day God established it on the 7th day of creation for all man (Genesis) – the sabbath was created for man and God also sanctified and blessed it. If you follow the 10 commandments, it is also the 4th commandment which God uses the word “Remember”, now why would He remind all who follow His laws (could He have seen into the future) – and lets not forget it is detailed. If you do not follow His 10 commandments, then I suppose the Sabbath day would not be observed. Let us remember that Jesus referenced one of the 10 commandments in Matthew 15:3-9. We all need to pray to God to help us to discern the difference between the commandments of God vs. the commandments of man.

        The sabbath day ( 7th day -) is a day that God set aside for all man to know that He alone is the One True God that created the heavens, the earth and everything in it and above it. If in the New Testament the sabbath did not apply anymore, why then would it be referenced so many times? and why would Jesus speak of it.

        And thank you for the seedless fruit research. I personally do not believe that seedless fruits are Gods creation, so I try my best to not eat them. In today’s time it is so difficult to know if what we eat is kosher. I guess what I’m trying to say is that God gave us the gift of choice, and because in my heart I feel that there is something wrong with eating shell fish and swine, I will not eat them or products that contain them. My point being – there are too many “Genetically Modified Foods and Animals”..

        You seem to separate the “Jews” and “Gentiles” and laws that were given to the “Jews”. Jesus was the same God that gave the laws to the Jews and Jesus was Jewish. The disciples were Jewish (except for Paul). In John chapter 1 “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”

        (Matthew 5:17-19) “Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For
        verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one
        tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever
        therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach
        men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but
        whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the
        kingdom of heaven.”

        Best bet would be for all of us to go directly to God and ask Him. We should fast and pray for answers. We are to trust no man, because all men are liars. We should hold faith and ask God and through faith and prayer He will answer all of our questions.

        Please have a blessed day. We should all come in peace and comfort one another in peace. We should all pray for one another because we are currently living in the end times and many many people are in the dark about what is really going on all around us.

        “For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities,
        against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world,
        against spiritual wickedness in high places.” (Ephesians 6:12)

        May God bless you and all in Jesus Christ name.

        • Jonathan Morgan

          I don’t need an example of “Gentile observance of Sabbath”. Why not? Because it doesn’t happen. That was exactly my point. Examples are given of Jews observing the Sabbath. A command is given to the Jews. There is nothing that I know of to require that command to be followed by non-Jews. There are passages in the NT that seem to show that it is not required. While you are correct that God rested on the seventh day of creation, there is no reference to him commanding people to rest on that day or of people resting on that day until the law of Moses.

          You are correct, I do separate “Jewish” and “Gentile” laws. Why? Because scriptures like Acts 15, Galatians, Colossians 2 and Hebrews (and probably others) seem to draw a distinction, and they are the passages the discussion was about.

          I have no problem whatever with you or anyone choosing to keep the Sabbath, choosing not to eat particular foods, or any similar decision. I just don’t think the New Testament requires it.

          As for John 1, see http://bibleq.net/answer/463/.

          • Susannah

            Jonathan, first I would like to state that I do respect your argument, however I am confused about something.

            Are you saying that the 10 commandments are no longer applicable? Do they not apply anymore?

            I have always thought of the 10 commandments as a way to identify the One True God. To change, alter eliminate the law would make it difficult for anyone to identify which God they worship.

            God sanctified the 7th day in Genesis and made it Holy. Did He change His mind and decide that man does not need rest anymore? Does He see resting one day out of the week a bad thing now, since He saw it was good in the beginning?

            Does history not prove that man decided to go and change Gods law to another day (time)? The first day of the week which is the Sun worship day.

            Why were there Sunday Laws in history that persecuted those that worshiped on Saturday? Never mind that there is a state that never did away with the Sunday law but they just currently don’t enforce it.

            I understand that we all have the choice to do whatever we want and worship anyway we choose, however in my heart I believe God when He said that He made the Sabbath day for man and not man for the Sabbath. I also do believe that God keeps His Word and if He sanctified something, it will always stay sanctified.

            The bible never states that God changed the Sabbath, but history proves that man did. I serve God not man. God made a promise to Abraham and He is not in the business of breaking His promises.

            This is my believe and I do not force anyone to believe me, but just listen to how I feel.

          • Jonathan Morgan

            First, I will prefix my remarks by saying again that if you feel it right to keep the Sabbath, then keep the sabbath. That is good.

            I do come from a group which have regular meetings on Sunday, and so I join in those meetings. But I’m not arguing that Sunday is a “Gentile Sabbath” which replaces the “Jewish Sabbath”. I have friends in other countries who meet together on Friday because that is the day they have off from work, and I am perfectly happy with that too. In the country where I live many (including me) work Monday – Friday and do not work Saturday or Sunday. While I’m happy to concede that those days can often be just as hectic as the working week, I try to set aside Sunday as a day of meeting with fellow believers and meeting God. It is not “the sabbath”, but it is the day fellow believers meet and so I join them.

            I don’t think it is any more accurate to talk about Sunday as “sun worship day” than to talk about Saturday as “saturn worship day” (which is also its origin). Other suggestions for the origin of Sunday as a day of worship for Christians are:

            1. As it was remembering the death and resurrection of Christ, it took place on the day of his resurrection (the first day of the week).

            2. As many believers met and discussed with Jews on their Sabbath, Christian meetings were held the following day instead.

            If either of these were true, they would have nothing to do with Roman sun worship.

            The only passages I know of which might support the idea that believers met on the first day of the week in the 1st century are Acts 20:7 (where they met to break bread on the first day of the week) and 1 Corinthians 16:2 (where Paul tells the Corinthians to prepare every week on the first day of the week for the gift he was organising – but this relies on inference that this happened at a shared gathering, which it doesn’t sound like to me). While I find these two examples interesting, I don’t think either of them are compelling evidence that believers met on the first day of the week in the first century. But nor do I think there is compelling evidence that believers met on the sabbath in the first century (though there is plenty of evidence that when the goal was teaching Jews both Jesus and Paul taught in a synagogue on the sabbath – but they were both happy to teach other days of the week as well).

            As far as the 10 commandments go, what I see is that the other 9 commandments are repeated in the New Testament (and some of them extended significantly by Jesus). However, rather than the command about the Sabbath being repeated in the New Testament, Jesus asserted his authority over and above the restrictions the Jews had made on the sabbath, and several passages in the epistles seem not to have it as a requirement (such as Colossians 2 which I have quoted and Romans 14).

            I don’t see any need to defend the “Sunday laws”, since I don’t think saying “scripture requires worship on Sunday” is any more right than saying “scripture requires worship on Saturday”.

          • Susannah

            This is what Jesus had to say about the Sabbath in the New Testament

            Mark 2:27-28 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath: Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

            Jesus is the same Lord of the Sabbath as was the Law. He never changed it or abolished it. The commandments were given to the Jewish people at that time because they followed the One True God.

            The 10 commandments were for all men that follow God. We cannot just choose 9 and disregard 1 because man feels that God will abide by it.

            It is so ironic how the ONLY commandment that God says to REMEMBER, is the only commandment that man does not apply today.

            The commandments are a reflection of Gods character. The 4th commandment clearly recognizes to ALL MEN who the real God is. He SANCTIFIED, BLESSED and HALLOWED it. He did all of this for the 7th day. We can worship everyday, however we are to rest on the 7th, which is repeated from Genesis to the first 2 people before Jewish people.

            (Exodus 20:8-11) “Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:”

            ** “For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.”

          • Jonathan Morgan

            It may not have been clear, but when I said “Jesus asserted his authority over and above the restrictions the Jews had made on the sabbath” I was referring to Mark 2. The Jews imposed many restrictions on people on the Sabbath. Jesus rejected these restrictions, viewing people as more important than rigid sabbath laws, and he had God-given authority to make these statements.

            If I hadn’t made it clear already, the 10 commandments were given to Jews and the commands to remember the Sabbath were given to Jews. I don’t see any automatic extension to Gentiles. While Jesus followed the Sabbath law, he did not establish it, and nor do I think he commanded his followers to follow it.

          • Susannah

            Yes it says Jesus rejected the restrictions, but no where does it say He rejected the Sabbath. Show me where He rejected the Sabbath.

            You said, and may I quote: ” While Jesus followed the Sabbath law, he did not establish it, and nor do I think he commanded his followers to follow it.”

            Who established it then? Is not Jesus God? The same God that created the earth and heaven? The same God that SANCTIFIED the 7th day on the 7th day of creation.

            As you said. ” NOR DO I THINK HE COMMANDED HIS FOLLOWERS TO FOLLOW IT.”

            You are basing this to your own understanding. Don’t think – prove it.

            His disciples walked with Him every day. Why did they observe the Sabbath after His crucifixion? His body was not prepared because the sabbath drew near.

            I am not telling you what I think, I am referencing the scriptures that are clear.

            You even agreed that It is true that believers become part of the promises to Abraham

            Christians are now the children of Isreal

            God said FOR EVER:

            (Exodus 31:16-17) “Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the
            sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a
            perpetual covenant. It is a sign between me and the children of Israel
            for ever: for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the
            seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.”

            1. A Perpetual covenant.

            2. It is a sign between me and the children of Israel FOR EVER:

            There are 2 doctrines. The Real one from God and counterfeit of the devil.

            The devil would never want anyone to know and/or remember that it was GOD that created the earth and heaven and man in 6 days and rested on the 7th day to reflect with His people that it was GOOD.

            When God established the Sabbath day in Genesis the Jewish people did not yet exist. HE REMINDED JACOBS PEOPLE TO DO SO BECAUSE IT SIGNIFIED THAT GOD WAS THE TRUE AND ONLY GOD

            Because the sabbath day was established on the 7th day of the earths creation BEFORE JEWISH PEOPLE EXISTED. Proves that sabbath was for GODS people. The seed of EVE for all time.

            JEWISH PEOPLE WERE REMINDED.

            REMEMBER means that it already existed. And that is the TRUTH.

            Let he who have understanding, understand.

            Before you get frustrated with me, please ASK God with fasting and prayer. He will answer you with the truth. Don’t believe me or any man, trust in God only.

            May God bless you in Jesus Christ name. Have a blessed day!

          • Jonathan Morgan

            I said it and I meant it: Jesus did not establish the Sabbath. God did.

            How would you like me to prove Jesus didn’t command his followers to follow it? Quote all the verses where he didn’t command it?

            As far as observance of the Sabbath goes before and after Jesus’ death, scripture tells us facts: person X kept the Sabbath. It doesn’t tell us why. We have to work that out for ourselves. I could think of many reasons why they might keep the Sabbath on the day after Jesus’ death:

            1. They had always done it (habit).

            2. They still believed themselves bound by the law.

            3. It wasn’t safe for them to appear to work on the Sabbath, since the authorities would get them.

            The verses I choose to consider are the many that appear to relax or remove the restrictions of the law from Gentile believers. Some of these verses explicitly mention the Sabbath. Some explicitly mention circumcision. Some explicitly mention sacrifice. Probably all of them are up for a certain amount of interpretation. But so are the verses you post.

            It is a big step to go from inheriting the promises of Abraham to being modern-day children of Israel. It is another step to go from there to conclude that all of the law and any statements made addressing Israel automatically apply to all believers in Christ. To me, Galatians 3 (which you quote in support of the first premise and I agree with) Paul argues against that final conclusion, and I don’t think does anything to support the “modern-day children of Israel” conclusion.

            While I recognise that the institution of the sabbath for Israel referred back to the creation account, I cannot think of any evidence between creation and the giving of the law that anyone kept it. That is part of the reason why I find it difficult to believe that the sabbath was established from the beginning of creation for all people, when I see it explicitly established for Israel and neither explicitly nor implicitly established for other people.

          • Susannah

            Your first sentence says everything. You separate Jesus from God. Jesus is God and was the same God that created heaven and earth.

            I agree that Jesus had to let the people know at the time that they were to strict regarding the sabbath, however He NEVER said that the sabbath no longer applied.

            If you do not want to recognize the Sabbath as the “Sabbath of the Lord thy God”, it is your choice not to.

            If you choose to not regard when in Isaiah 66 it says (Isaiah 66:22-23) “For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain. And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord.”

            Again it is your choice to ignore what is clearly stated in scripture and allow yourself to ASSUME what the new testament scriptures meant.

            None of the scriptures you quoted, say the word Sabbath. And remember the scriptures also say not to lean to your own understanding.

            When you say “I said it and I meant it: Jesus did not establish the Sabbath. God did.” WHAT DO YOU MEAN?

            I think this is where your confusion stems from –

            In the beginning was the WORD, the WORD was with GOD, the WORD is GOD.

            Jesus was the WORD.

            And for you to say that God said something in the beginning and now He means something totally different, or to say that God sanctified something which He also made Holy and now changed His mind is trying to teach others that God made a mistake and that is WRONG.

          • Jonathan Morgan

            I think I’ve already linked to this, but concerning “the word made flesh”, consider http://bibleq.net/answer/463/.

            Just out of curiosity, do you keep the new moon festival? The verses you quote from Isaiah 66 mention new moon together with the sabbath, but I don’t think I’ve encountered a group which kept the sabbath and also kept the new moon. Sabbath and new moon are mentioned together (along with food and drink) as things not to let others pass judgement on you for in Colossians 2:16.

          • Susannah

            1.) Jesus rejected some restrictions, but no where does it say He did away with the Sabbath day. You can not prove it, because it is unprovable.

            2.) The 10 commandments were and are STILL for ALL Gods people. Moses laws were for the Jewish people at that time and Jesus fulfilled them. Jesus was the last sacrifice.

            The 10 Commandments are Gods LAWS to us in Jesus Christ. If you would like I can list all 10 of them and you can tell me if they no longer apply and how Jesus fulfilled each one.

            As a matter of fact, here we go.

            1.) No other Gods – STILL APPLIES

            2.) No graven images – STILL APPLIES

            3.) Name in vain – STILL APPLIES

            4.) REMEMBER SABBATH of the Lord thy GOD – STILL APPLIES ( and don’t tell me that the only one He tells us to remember we are to forget)

            5.) Honour parents – STILL APPLIES

            6.) No Killing – STILL APPLIES

            7.) No Adultery – STILL APPLIES

            8.) No Stealing – STILL APPLIES

            9.) No False Witness – STILL APPLIES

            10.) No Coveting – STILL APPLIES

            A.) So let me get this straight, God (who is Jesus) fulfilled these laws, so we can break them and still be ok with God.

            B.) Or maybe your saying that we are to follow all other 9 but the only one that God CLEARLY states as His day, so that we can all reflect on how HE was the ONE who created the entire world and heaven in 6 days and rested on the 7th.

            To remove the 4th commandment would be to remove the remembrance of who the CREATOR is. This is a snare set up by the devil.

            C.) or maybe your saying a different God spoke only to the Jewish people and Jesus is a separate and His laws are different.

            I don’t understand, nor do I want to understand your philosophy.

            You still will not answer why God said to “REMEMBER”, because that means that it was already a law, which God made in Genesis when only 2 people existed. And if only 2 people existed, which were to multiply the earth, then we are to assume that it was established for all man kind.

          • Jonathan Morgan

            These points have already been answered. I don’t see any point continuing a discussion where you state you don’t want to understand my arguments.

          • Susannah

            The Sabbath is a day set aside to acknowledge Gods Creation and Power

            Acts 13:42 (KJV) “And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the
            Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next
            sabbath.

            Question #1: Who is Isreal?

            New Testament (Galatians 3:29) And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

            Old Testament (Isaiah 41:8) But thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend.

            Question #2: How long was the Sabbath established for and to whom?

            (Exodus 31:16-17) “Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant. It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.”

            A Perpetual covenant. It is a sign between me and the children of Israel FOR EVER:

            Who is Abrahams seed and heirs to a promise? Those in Christ by FAITH. Like it or not, we are the new Jews, who will be hated and killed for His names sake. To be Jewish is not a religion or nationality. It is a FAITH and a belief to a covenant.

            God made a covenant with the seed of Abraham through Isreal. The New Testament is those through the FAITH in Jesus Christ are the new SEED of ISREAL by FAITH. No matter how you shake it – GOD NEVER CHANGES HIS MIND OR BREAKS A PROMISE because HE IS PERFECT

            Leviticus 19:30 (KJV) “Ye shall keep my sabbaths, and reverence my sanctuary: I am the Lord.”

            Acts 18:4 (KJV) “And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.”

            The new Isreal (Jewish people) are those that accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. The new Gentiles are those that do not believe that Jesus Christ is our Lord and savior.

            In the end, Gods children and chosen ones will be recognized by those who KEEP ALL HIS COMMANDMENTS. Jesus did say, if we love Him – we are to keep His commandments.

            Jesus came to fulfill the Laws. Well what Laws can be fulfilled? None of the 10 commandments can be fulfilled. He fulfilled the sacrifices for sins, the Passover etc…

            The devil has been setting stage for thousands of years for the big deception. A key to all this is to remember that if something feels good and goes with the acceptance and flow with the way of the current world – then we should step back and analyze.

            God is not of this world and if we are of Him, then our way of living and being will be at odds with the way the world thinks and acts.

            (Ephisians 6:12) For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

            (Ephisians 2:11-13) Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

            That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

            But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

            ———————————-Unclean Foods———————-

            Here is another way to look at unclean foods. God made everything and everything He made had a purpose. Leviticus was a manual for our body when it came to foods. You know a guide to keep it running healthy for a long time.

            Leviticus 11:3 (KJV) “Whatsoever parteth the hoof, and is clovenfooted, and cheweth the cud, among the beasts, that shall ye eat.”

            Now lets exam – God asked us to eat certain meats from certain animals which he identified as clean and unclean.

            Lets face it, some animals are just nasty and they eat their own feces. Coincidentally the animals that God instructed us to eat were animals that were not nasty. Research animals that chew at the cud and those that don’t. Its a digestive process.

            Shellfish are bottom feeders. They eat and clean the ocean floor. What falls to bottom of the oceans floor you ask. Waste materials and dead stuff.

            Shellfish are natural filters of the ocean. Why would God want His own children, His beautiful creation to eat food that He knows are just unclean?

            Would you reuse the what you clean from your filter in the dryer? If no, then why would you eat something that was made to clean the ocean. I mean the choice is yours. Your body is yours to do what you please. God just knew what He created and what was clean and unclean. He just gave us a heads up…

          • Jonathan Morgan

            It is true that believers become part of the promises to Abraham, as discussed in Galatians 3. I find it interesting however that you quote from Galatians 3 to show Gentile believers become part of Israel and are under the law, whereas when I read it Paul seems to be arguing that the promises to Abraham preceded the giving of the law, and thus that followers of Christ are not under the law. Consider particularly v17 – 26.

            Keeping Jesus’ commandments is fine. However, I don’t find it written that he commanded us to keep the sabbath. It doesn’t seem like we’re going to reach any agreement on what the fulfillment of the law means, but if Jesus kept the law I can’t see why that would not be “fulfilling” it. Basically, it made requirements of him. He kept them.

            As I said, both Jesus and Paul taught on the sabbath when they were in the synagogues. That is because the synagogue was the place where Jews met, and the sabbath was the time they met there. Similarly, before Gentiles heard the message of Jesus, the synagogue was the place they had to go if they wanted to learn about God. That doesn’t mean we have to meet on the Sabbath (particularly if other believers are meeting on Sunday).

          • Susannah

            Why would Jesus say in Matthew 24 – Pray that your flight not be in winter or on the Sabbath?

            Even if you argue that it was for the Jews in AD 70, why would Jesus warn to pray that it did not fall on the Sabbath years after His resurrection if He had fulfilled the laws or if He knew that the Sabbath was no longer to be observed.

            The sabbath is mentioned

            Clearly if Jesus, being God, did away with the Sabbath, He would not make any significance to it for the future.

            God speaks of the seventh day 126 times in the Old Testament and 62 times in the New. The first day of the week is mentioned only eight times in the New Testament.

            History shows that pagans worship on Sunday, which is pagan for sun worship even as of today. And before you bring up Saturday as the day of Saturn, REMEMBER that God established the Sabbath (7th day of the week) in the beginning of time before sun worship / Saturn came about.

            History reveals that man changed the day of worship to Sunday and enforced it with death. This goes back to AD 330-300 Constantine with his idea to “If we can’t beat them, join them” and then ever since paganism was mingled with worship of the One True God.

            Just as the 4th commandment was changed to Sunday, they also completely removed the 2nd commandment (graven images to worship) and split I believe the 10th commandment into 2 to compensate for the removal of the 4th.

            Christians today still worship idols. They worship the cross, images of saints and so on.

            It doesn’t make any sense to say that Jesus fulfilled any of the 10 commandments. The 10 commandments are there to describe who God is, how not to worship, and how to live peacefully.

            God spoke everything into existence. He fashioned man with His own hands. God wrote only once in the entire history of the bible. He wrote the 10 commandment with His finger and now you want me to believe that it no longer applies.

            I fear God too much to think other wise. Just because the majority of Christians worship on Sunday, does not mean its right. God does not follow man.

            We suffer because we lack knowledge. People need to read the bible for themselves, pray to God for understanding and research history for answers.

            There is nothing under the sun that is new. History will repeat itself.

          • Jonathan Morgan

            Jesus knew the Sabbath would still be observed, particularly in Jerusalem. Does that mean it had to still be observed? Well, I would argue, in light of the passages already cited from places like Hebrews, Colossians, Romans and Galatians that the answer to that is “no”.

            While it is common to date the beginning of all apostasy to Constantine, it is neither fair nor accurate to do so. Changes had been happening slowly pretty much since the apostolic times. The councils and actions instantiated by Constantine may have helped further some of this. However, since our decision to meet on Sunday has nothing to do with these councils but with the scriptures cited, and since we do not put people to death who do not meet on Sunday, I’m not sure how much of this history actually applies to us.

            You may not have caught it, but the reason I mentioned Saturday being derived from Saturn as equivalent to Sunday being derived from the sun is that the cases are exactly parallel: if the decision was taken by Christians to meet on Sunday before or without reference to sun worship, then it is the same as the decision to meet on Saturday before Saturn worship. To that end I quoted a couple of verses which provide interesting indications that some things were done by Christians on the first day of the week. As I also mentioned, I don’t find those examples conclusive, but I do think there are plenty of possible explanations for Sunday worship which would not require it being derived from sun worship, and certainly today I doubt there are many Christians who consider sun worship on Sunday or even know anyone who would be likely to worship the sun on Sunday.

            Idol worship is certainly wrong, and is spoken against in many New Testament passages. It is noticeable that these passages extend the concept beyond mere focus on images made by men to covetousness and viewing other things as more important than God.

          • Susannah

            Why do you rebel against the sabbath?

            It is supposed to be a good thing. A day of rest and to reflect with God all that He had done creating heaven and earth. A day for us to forget about the cares of this earth and spend in remembrance of God with God and fellowship.

            Just because the devil has made it difficult to worship Friday night – Saturday night because of work, partying and other cares – doesn’t mean that God doesn’t observe it.

            Man can change the times and laws, but man can not change anything about GOD.

            Read it carefully: God detailed this law for a reason

            (Exodus 20:8-11) “Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.”

            (Exodus 31:16-17) “Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant. It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.”

            Give into God, don’t rebel against His Word.

            It seems you separate the Jewish people from Gentiles. Well let me enlighten you a little. Jesus was Jewish and died Jewish.

            The dragon was wroth with the woman about to give birth. The woman gave birth to Jesus and now the dragon is wroth and out to make war with the remnants of the woman.

            All followers of Jesus Christ who hold His testimony are the ones that the dragon is wroth with. We will be hated and exterminated way worse than the world has ever seen, currently sees and will ever see.

            It has been 2000 years since Jesus resurrected, and the devil has had time to set up the stage of deceit. The harlots wine has been mingled. Meaning that evil doctrine has been mingled with the doctrine that is currently being fed to all Christians.

            God has pulled me out and opened my eyes. Are you telling me that I have been lied to? I at one time thought of Sunday as the day of worship and celebrated pagan days such as christmas and easter.

            I also ate plently of pork, lobster and shrimp.

          • Jonathan Morgan

            You ask “Why do I rebel against the Sabbath?” I thought I had answered that many times in this thread already. But just to make it clear: the answer is that there are a number of passages in the New Testament that seem to say it is not required for Gentiles, and other supporting passages which seem to say that it is one of many aspects of the law which not only does not apply to Gentiles, but should not be applied to Gentiles. It is not about trying to rebel against scripture, but to understand it.

            You clearly feel that you should keep the Sabbath. I have absolutely no issue with you doing that. However, I think it is actively wrong and counter to the message of the New Testament to try and enforce that on others.

          • Susannah

            These scriptures came to me last night so I thought I would share:

            1.) God wrote this with His own finger. Notice how He didn’t say the Sabbath is of the Jews or Israelites . “IS THE SABBATH OF THE LORD THY GOD” He also numbers the day of the week.

            (Exodus 20:10) “But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God:”

            2.) Here is God talking about The New Earth When ALL FLESH Will Worship Him

            (Isaiah 66:22-23) “For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain. And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord.”

            Have you noticed that the only day of the week God ever mentions and calls by name over and over in the bible (since Genesis) is the 7th (the Sabbath)?

            3.) These verses explain what the disciples, women and followers did at the time of Jesus’ death. I believe if they followed and walked with Him every day, they would have known if the Sabbath no longer applied. And since Jesus already fulfilled the law (Moses’ Law not Gods Law) by being crucified, then why still observe the sabbath after His death.

            Emphasis on the last sentence **”ACCORDING TO THE COMMANDMENT”**

            (Luke 23:51-56) “(The same had not consented to the counsel and deed of them;) he was of Arimathæa, a city of the Jews: who also himself waited for the kingdom of God. This man went unto Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus. And he took it down, and wrapped it in linen, and laid it in a sepulchre that was hewn in stone, wherein never man before was laid. And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on. And the women also, which came with him from Galilee, followed after, and beheld the sepulchre, and how his body was laid. And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.”

            ———–
            I am not making this up. It is all over the scriptures.

            Every day the Lord is showing me new scriptures regarding the Sabbath. The Sabbath is the day of the Lord and Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath. His own words.

            I believe this fact is going to be very important in the very last days.

            Thank you for your time and may God Bless and have a nice day.

          • Jonathan Morgan

            Again the list of quotations seem to concern Jewish ideas and people. Jesus’ followers at his death were following commands they had followed all their lives. However, given that they clearly didn’t understand what Jesus said about his death and resurrection, and didn’t really expect either, I find it hard to believe they would have come up with perfect sabbath teaching just based on being with Jesus (note: I doubt we would have understood Jesus better if we were there).

      • Susannah

        This quote from Jonathan Morgan – “And when you quote “heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will
        not pass away” that is a saying in the NT, by an NT character (Jesus). I
        suspect it only applied to the chapter in which he said it (the Olivet
        prophecy), not all of his NT sayings. However, even if it did, that
        includes no Sabbath laws, no food laws, and the saying quoted above in
        Mark 7:18 that declared all foods clean.”

        Did Mark 7:18 – really declare all foods clean. Did Jesus declare this? or was He letting them know that they should also watch what they say. That they focused on food going in but didn’t realize that words can defile you also? Just a question.

        What did Jesus mean in Matthew 24:20 “But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:”

        Scripture proves over and over that Jesus observed the Sabbath day – the same Sabbath day as the Jewish people at that time. Why would Jesus tell us to pray that our flight in the end times not be on the Sabbath, but yet He never changed the Sabbath day. He established it in Genesis and will last forever.

        Daniel 7:25 speaks of man trying to change time and laws. What does changing time mean? and changing laws? We have to be so careful of trying to separate Jesus Christ from the Old Testament.

        One day to God is a thousand years to us. Scriptures date the world around 6000 years old or close to it. At the end of time, Jesus will reign for 1000 years here on earth, which symbolically would be the last 1000 years – a time of rest with our God.

        • Jonathan Morgan

          In Matthew 24, Jesus was answering three questions:

          1. When will Herod’s temple be destroyed?
          2. When will the kingdom come?
          3. When will be the time of the end?

          It seems (given how important the disciples thought the temple was) that the disciples thought these three things would happen at the same time. However, as we know now, the temple was destroyed in AD 70, and Jesus did not return then. While it is not always clear which parts of his answer apply to AD 70, which apply to the time of the end, and which to both, I think the sabbath comment applies to AD 70. The Jewish people in Jerusalem would still be observing the sabbath. You might also want to consider http://bibleq.net/answer/4674/.

          I don’t know for certain what the times and laws in Daniel 7. But I do find it hard to believe it refers to reading and following instructions in the New Testament. It sounds much more like something that comes from a person’s imagination without any reference to scripture.

          • Susannah

            Even if the time was for AD 70, does it not prove that even after Jesus resurrected those who followed Him still observed the Sabbath? The bible prophesy’s at times referred to that time and for future reference. Almost everything happens twice.

            Jesus referenced the Old Testament over and over. He was the God in the Old Testament.

            The Christian faith has been infiltrated, altered and perverted. We as followers of Christ have no choice but to go directly to God for answers. This is accomplished by FASTING & PRAYING. Jesus is the truth not man.

          • Jonathan Morgan

            I expect Jews in Jerusalem to follow the Sabbath. However, it’s important to note that Jews in Jerusalem in Acts 15 recognised that the law was a yoke which they shouldn’t be imposing on Gentiles. I will agree that chapter doesn’t explicitly mention the Sabbath, but I think the principles in the chapter apply to the Sabbath. It is quite true that Jesus, the son of God, referenced the Old Testament frequently. It was the word that provided a prototype for his actions, and he fulfilled the law. I just don’t think it is so simple a logical step to go from this to the conclusion that Gentiles had to keep all the Jewish law, particularly when there are passages that seem to suggest otherwise.

  • http://robjhyndman.com Rob J Hyndman

    I think everything that can be said on this topic has probably now been said. So I’m closing the comments. Thanks for the discussion.